{"id":163964,"date":"2023-09-20T11:24:23","date_gmt":"2023-09-20T10:24:23","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.musicbusinessworldwide.com\/?p=163964"},"modified":"2023-09-20T18:00:52","modified_gmt":"2023-09-20T17:00:52","slug":"lucas-keller-ambition-songwriters-bmi","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.musicbusinessworldwide.com\/lucas-keller-ambition-songwriters-bmi\/","title":{"rendered":"Lucas Keller on ambition, songwriters, BMI \u2013 and what he’d do if he ran a major record company"},"content":{"rendered":"

MBW\u2019s World\u2019s Greatest Managers series profiles the best artist managers in the global business. This time out we talk to Lucas Keller, whose L.A-headquartered Milk & Honey is celebrating its 10th year in business. World’s Greatest Managers is supported by Centtrip<\/a>, a specialist in intelligent treasury, payments and foreign exchange \u2013 created with the music industry and its needs in mind.<\/p>\n

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To most of the 10 million-plus people who\u2019ve played it, the 30-year-old video game Doom<\/em> is nothing more than a bit of pixelated fun.<\/p>\n

A cartoonishly violent early \u201890s FPS complete with chainsaws, rocket launchers, and a dash of demonic imagery, it\u2019s essentially the Alice Cooper of interactive entertainment.<\/p>\n

But for Lucas Keller, founder of Milk & Honey Management<\/a>, Doom<\/em> represents something else: his first semi-serious step into entrepreneurialism.<\/p>\n

\u201cI was the richest kid in school!\u201d Keller laughs, explaining that, aged just 11, he began coding \u2018modded\u2019 levels for Doom<\/em>\u00a0in MS-DOS. He would then send these levels into Doom<\/em> creator iD Software, via a 5-and-a-quarter-inch floppy disk; the company would pay Keller for his creations, and include them in semi-official Doom<\/em> \u2018expansion packs\u2019.<\/p>\n

\u201cI was a nerd in school, loved RPGs and video games, and cranked those levels out,\u201d Keller explains. \u201cThey paid me a bunch for \u2018em.\u201d<\/p>\n

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Keller has been successfully converting his passion for art and entertainment into thriving ventures ever since. And in music \u2013 especially in the world of songwriter and producer management \u2013 he\u2019s done so on an exceptional scale.<\/p>\n

Wisconsin-raised Keller\u2019s Milk & Honey, founded in 2013, is currently celebrating its tenth anniversary. Its enviable client list, anchored in the world of songwriters and producers, has contributed to some of the streaming age\u2019s biggest global smashes \u2013 including Dua Lipa\u2019s Levitating<\/em>, BTS\u2019s Butter<\/em>, Luis Fonsi, Daddy Yankee & Justin Bieber\u2019s Despacito<\/em>, and James Arthur\u2019s Say You Won\u2019t Let Go<\/em>.<\/p>\n

In its tenth year in business, the company has already been involved with hits from artists like Travis Scott, Doja Cat, Charli XCX, Morgan Wallen, Doechii, and more.<\/p>\n

With an HQ in Los Angeles and offices in London, New York, Nashville, Sydney, and Dallas, Milk & Honey\u2019s 125-strong client list today includes songwriter\/producers like David Hodges, Oak Felder, Andres Torres, Mauricio Rengifo, Y2K, Noah Goldstein, Jenna Andrews, J White Did It, Jamie Hartman, and Stuart Price.<\/p>\n

M&H also runs a thriving DJ\/artist business, repping hit-making global DJs like Oliver Heldens and Benny Benassi, plus a more underground roster featuring Chris Avantgarde, Giol\u00ec & Assia, HI-LO and Massano.<\/p>\n

In 2021 it launched a new division, Milk & Honey Sports<\/a>, that now reps over 20 athletes in the NFL, plus over 15 players in the MLB.<\/p>\n

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Keller is still only 39, but he\u2019s chalked up a rare level of experience in the blockbuster music industry.<\/p>\n

A few years after designing those Doom<\/em> levels, Keller turned his coding expertise to the entertainment biz: In college, he designed software that enabled talent agencies to manage their itineraries and deal sheets \u2013 before licensing it to a number of prominent companies in the US live business.<\/p>\n

From there, he moved into talent management by working with Steve Hutton, best known as Kid Rock\u2019s first manager, in Illinois.<\/p>\n

Keller moved to L.A in 2009 and joined The Collective, which at the time managed megastars such as Kanye West and Linkin Park. Keller\u2019s roster at The Collective included Evanescence\u2019s David Hodges \u2013 a staple songwriter client at Milk & Honey today \u2013 plus the late Scott Weiland of Stone Temple Pilots, reggae legend Jimmy Cliff, and others<\/p>\n

In addition to this industry pedigree and a thriving 10-year-old management shop, Lucas Keller has one other big thing going for him as a World\u2019s Greatest Managers<\/em> interviewee: T-rex-sized opinions.<\/p>\n

Below, you can enjoy a number of said opinions tumbling out into our Q&A \u2013 including Keller\u2019s thoughts on why the major music companies \u201creally run this town\u201d, why \u201cGmail managers\u201d are clogging up the music business, and why he thinks it\u2019s high time for the industry to end the \u201cwork-from-home bullshit\u2026\u201d<\/p>\n

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I know you have lots of strong opinions to share on the wider business, but first I want to ask you about Milk & Honey itself, and the way you ensure your US and UK offices \u2013 and other international offices \u2013 collaborate in developing your writers and artists.<\/h6>\n

When you study how A&R works in the big music companies \u2013 whether that\u2019s a publisher, a record company, or a talent agent \u2013 you learn that, structurally, those executives don\u2019t share the money with one another. Especially if they work in different territories.<\/p>\n

I\u2019ve met a number of big songwriters or producers in the UK now who are like, \u2018I came to LA for a few years but it didn\u2019t really work out for me.\u2019 And it\u2019s like, oh, let me guess, that\u2019s because you\u2019re signed in the UK, so the L.A. person at your publisher set you up with a few D-list sessions because they weren\u2019t incentivized to help you. That to me suggests these companies haven\u2019t figured out how to share the wealth properly.<\/p>\n

When people bring opportunities to your company, you have to give your individual people upside if they push those opportunities to [clients\/signings] in the building who aren\u2019t their own and have success. Otherwise [individual managers\/A&Rs] are just going to push their own signings towards those opportunities.<\/p>\n

“We\u2019re at 35 people now, we\u2019ll be at 50 by the end of the next year, and those people all work incredibly closely together.”<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

If there\u2019s an opportunity that\u2019s perfect for a red client, and you personally only represent blue and green \u2013 but the guy or girl down the hall represents red \u2013 it\u2019s ridiculous to ruin that opportunity for the red client because it doesn\u2019t work for you personally.<\/p>\n

At Milk & Honey, we don\u2019t work that way. We don\u2019t cap what our people can earn when they bring in a song opportunity or a big placement for a client who\u2019s looked after by someone down the hall \u2013 or looked after by someone over the Atlantic, for that matter.<\/p>\n

When there is a win, we\u2019re going to look after the person who brought in the opportunity, and not just the manager of record. We\u2019ve built a culture where people work in teams, and really want to help each other \u2013 in the old clich\u00e9, it takes a village.<\/p>\n

That\u2019s had a profound impact on the quality of opportunities we’ve secured for our clients in multiple territories, both in and outside of the US. We\u2019re at 35 people now, we\u2019ll be at 50 by the end of the next year, and those people all work incredibly closely together. We will not keep execs around who don\u2019t buy into our culture, no matter how big their clients are.<\/p>\n

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Let\u2019s talk about some industry issues, starting with the number of songwriters I\u2019m seeing on pop tracks in the charts. Does that have an economic impact on your business and your clients?<\/h6>\n

It helps me none to drag the A&R community through the mud \u2013 there are some great<\/em> A&R executives out there. But when there\u2019s an issue, I don\u2019t mind speaking out about it.<\/p>\n

Without mentioning names, there is now a culture in the US pop music business of A&R people that, for whatever reason, take a song and pass it around like a blunt. So you end up with 10 writers, 12 writers, on a song that was already really [complete] a while ago.<\/p>\n

If you\u2019re a major publisher, and your [writers combined] are getting 40%<\/strong> of that [12-writer pie] then maybe you can live with it. But an individual writer getting 5%<\/strong>? That isn\u2019t a business. Our clients can\u2019t work for free.<\/p>\n

“There has become a culture in the US pop music business of A&R people that, for whatever reason, take a song and pass it around like a blunt.”<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Where it gets worse is when the person who puts the record out [as a record company A&R] also has a publishing company on the side. You\u2019re then not just dealing with two producers and a handful of writers; that [record company exec] is also going to bring in three more<\/em> writers who are signed to their [\u2018side\u2019 pubco] and it\u2019s going to get out of hand.<\/p>\n

By the end of it, any real money anyone could have made is so diluted. Songwriters have enough issues against them today \u2013 we shouldn’t be hurting them more as a business with this bullshit.<\/p>\n

Then you look at, say, a stunning Adele song, an evergreen, and you see it’s got two writers on it. And then you hear some milquetoast, copycat pop song that has 14 writers on it. And it\u2019s like: something is very wrong here.<\/p>\n

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You think that \u2018side-hustle\u2019 scenario of a record company A&R with their own publishing company is a cause of that situation?<\/h6>\n

It doesn\u2019t help!<\/p>\n

Man, if I ran these big companies, I\u2019d tell those guys: \u2018So, as a reminder, seeing as we pay you hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, you have an exclusive employment agreement. So knock it off with managing that guy on the side, or having a side publishing company.\u2019<\/p>\n

If you\u2019re getting paid a second time [for a record release] via your publishing company, you\u2019re just siphoning money off the company that employs you to do a job.<\/p>\n

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One thing you\u2019ve talked to MBW about before is your view that the ambition might have gone out of talent management \u2013 and that there\u2019s not enough reverence for the industry\u2019s \u2018golden gods\u2019 who built vast empires in music. Do you still feel that way?<\/h6>\n

Yes. It\u2019ll make me sound like an oldster, even though I\u2019m 39. But when I talk to younger managers, south of 28 or whatever, there\u2019s a lack of regard for any history, or those that came before \u2013 Azoff, Geffen, Landau, you name it.<\/p>\n

My GM and business partner, Nic [Warner], says it to me all the time: \u2018Lucas, it\u2019s great you care about [the history of legends in the business] but it\u2019s important for you to know that the next generation doesn\u2019t care half as much.\u2019 And I get it.<\/p>\n

But at the same time, I\u2019m better because I paid attention to mentors \u2013 I heard what they were saying on the phone, saw how they dealt with clients \u2013 and I was also receptive to the stories about people who did amazing pioneering things in this business.<\/p>\n

“Between that and this modern work-from-home bullshit, it makes me worry about the future \u2013 a generation of under-guided, unambitious, unexciting managers. Because that\u2019s bad for everyone, especially artists.”<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

I guess ultimately I\u2019m concerned we\u2019re going to have a mentoring gap. Especially when it comes to these ‘Gmail managers’ with one client, who become what they think is independently wealthy, but who then see their star client dump them and leave them in the wilderness. And then they come to a company like ours looking for a job with no client to offer, and no experience of not working on their own.<\/p>\n

Between that and this modern work-from-home bullshit, it makes me worry about the future \u2013 a generation of under-guided, unambitious, unexciting managers. Because that\u2019s bad for everyone, especially artists.<\/p>\n

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Sorry: Work-from-home bullshit?<\/h6>\n

Listen, Covid happened. We closed. We got vaccinated. I believe the science.<\/p>\n

Since then, in a lot of ways, we\u2019ve seen a seismic change in the way we all work, and I can appreciate the benefits of Zoom and all of it.<\/p>\n

“I\u2019m a pro-office guy, and I don’t mind who knows it.”<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

But there were some things that worked just fine before the pandemic, and office space was one of them. We\u2019re just about to sign another 10-year lease on our LA office next month. We\u2019re not going anywhere.<\/p>\n

I\u2019m a pro-office guy, and I don’t mind who knows it. There are 22 people in our LA office right now, it\u2019s a really good vibe; people can just walk into somebody else\u2019s office and get something done in five minutes that otherwise would have been lost on an email chain somewhere.<\/p>\n

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There\u2019s been a lot of talk in the music business recently about streaming fraud and AI-made music. What’s your take?<\/h6>\n

We\u2019re not far away from the day we have a million songs a day uploaded to streaming services, most of which are generated by AI. And I can get the argument that [this flood of AI music] doesn\u2019t matter, because \u2018ultimately people are going to gravitate towards the Ed Sheeran song\u2019.<\/p>\n

But over time, we\u2019re going to become so inundated with that music, it\u2019s inevitable that it’s going to take away from the higher-quality, premium contemporary music business. We need to fix that now before the roof falls in.<\/p>\n

“We need to fix it now before the roof falls in.”<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

As for the streaming fraud side of it, my view is really that the major DSPs, when it comes down to it, have very little control over anything in music. The three guys who run the major music companies really run this whole town. That\u2019s true as of today, anyway.<\/p>\n

We\u2019re all looking to them to agree on a strategy for fraudulent streaming, figure out where it\u2019s coming from, and shut it down.<\/p>\n

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If you ran a major record company tomorrow, what problem would you<\/em> focus on fixing and why?<\/h6>\n

Here\u2019s a statistic that I put together before this call: 75%<\/strong> of Milk & Honey releases \u2013 tracks on which we have a writer \u2013 do not have approved writer and publishing splits agreed and approved before they are released.<\/p>\n

How about that? It\u2019s pretty out of control.<\/p>\n

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What\u2019s causing that problem?<\/h6>\n

One of the biggest culprits is disorganization, and inexperienced managers don’t help.<\/p>\n

Another big culprit, obviously, is record companies delivering things [to streamers] without having everything finished. That\u2019s why you get incomplete credits on Spotify \u2013 it\u2019s not all Spotify\u2019s fault!<\/p>\n

And then some of it is deliberate and devious: Artists and their managers waiting till the bitter end for leverage to try and get as big [a songwriting share for the performer] as possible.<\/p>\n

They think the writers will always cave when they ask for some egregious amount of publishing \u2013 once the horse has bolted \u2013 for their artists who wrote nothing on the track.<\/p>\n

“some of it is deliberate and devious: Artists and their managers waiting till the bitter end for leverage to try and get as big [a songwriting share for the performer] as possible.”<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

It’s terrible. That leverage, [testing the idea] that no songwriter wants to upset the artist relationship, is a real thing.<\/p>\n

It\u2019s in those situations we as a company don\u2019t make any friends, because the labels know that if it comes to it we\u2019re willing to refuse the mechanical license and get the song taken down.<\/p>\n

It\u2019s like, \u2018Really, guys? You\u2019re gonna take Big Artist X\u2019s song down?\u2019 And we\u2019re like, \u2018Yes, absolutely. We\u2019re going to take that song off the DSP and you can start again at zero streams, unless our writer gets what they’ve worked for.’<\/p>\n

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You\u2019ve told me before that Milk & Honey makes\/recovers a multi-seven-figure amount each year just from auditing.<\/h6>\n

I’m glad you mentioned this: it’s boring stuff, but it\u2019s important stuff. And what\u2019s really<\/em> important is all the people out there not doing it who should be.<\/p>\n

I had never done an audit until 12 years ago, when I did one for a client with the business manager Gary Haber, who was loved by all and sadly passed away.<\/a><\/p>\n

Every single audit I\u2019ve ever done since \u2013 and every time we finish one, we start another \u2013 we\u2019ve recovered money for clients. They\u2019re painful, and they take a long time. But some of the sums we\u2019ve recovered have been hugely significant.<\/p>\n

“I\u2019m not going to say any of the actions that [cause due money to go missing] are intentional on the part of the audited party. Let\u2019s just say, to keep the peace, that mistakes happen.”<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

I\u2019m not going to say any of the actions that [cause due money to go missing] are intentional on the part of the audited party. Let\u2019s just say, to keep the peace, that mistakes happen.<\/p>\n

This is where having a proper management company with a bunch of experts who\u2019ve been around the block, who know how money gets skimmed, and who know where that money can be located, comes in helpful \u2013 as opposed to relying on the ‘Gmail manager’ fixing the plane as they fly it.<\/p>\n

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I can\u2019t interview someone so prominent in the world of songwriting and publishing without asking about what\u2019s going on at BMI. They\u2019ve gone FOR-PROFIT<\/a>, they\u2019re in discussions \u2013 WE HEAR<\/a> \u2013 with a New York private equity company for a potential sale, and they\u2019re under fire from songwriter groups, who ARE ASKING<\/a>, in essence, whether BMI’s future profits shouldn\u2019t be going to songwriters. What\u2019s your take?<\/h6>\n

Judging by the typical reaction out there I guess I\u2019m supposed to jump down BMI’s throat, but that\u2019s not what I\u2019m going to do.<\/p>\n

It\u2019s no secret that Milk & Honey has put a lot of stuff with BMI over the years, just as we have all the PROs. So I want to make something clear: I answer to the songwriters \u2013 I don\u2019t answer to private equity, or to any corporation. I don\u2019t answer to BMI, just like I don\u2019t answer to Sony or Universal.<\/p>\n

I\u2019ve had a lot of conversations with Michael [O\u2019Neill] down the years, and recently as well. I’ve talked to great minds in our section of the business like [David Israelite] and Bart Herbison on this topic. And my conclusion is, it’s just too early to know.<\/p>\n

“What do we know about private equity deals? As soon as you\u2019ve done them, those guys are typically in your building trying to cut margin. But Mike O\u2019Neill also knows that if the first thing he does [post-potential-sale] is to try and take from the songwriters, everybody will leave anyway. So I can\u2019t believe that\u2019s his strategy.”<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

I was supportive of BMI\u2019s move to become a for-profit company last year. There\u2019s a lot we still don’t know about the motivations to sell. But I think it would be tacky for anyone to rush in and make accusations.<\/p>\n

We\u2019ll have questions for them, for sure, and we\u2019ll scrutinize. But I\u2019ve told [clients] who\u2019ve already asked me about leaving BMI: If you want to leave, it\u2019s easy to leave. These are one-to-two-year agreements, and ASCAP will be happy to have you.<\/p>\n

What do we know about private equity deals? As soon as you\u2019ve done them, those guys are typically in your building trying to cut margin. But Mike O\u2019Neill also knows that if the first thing he does [post-potential-sale] is to try and take from the songwriters, everybody will leave anyway. So I can\u2019t believe that\u2019s his strategy.<\/p>\n

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What is<\/em> his strategy?<\/h6>\n

Right now, who knows? But if you look at Mike O\u2019Neill\u2019s track record, that guy has crushed it for songwriters year after year, more and more.<\/p>\n

I\u2019ll keep learning and watching, but we\u2019re not running out of the building in a panic. BMI has done too much good work for our clients for me to assume they\u2019re suddenly going to become a not-good-place for songwriters. If they do, we\u2019ll have that conversation then \u2013 not before.<\/p>\n

Also, and this isn\u2019t said enough, being not-for-profit can confine you. It\u2019s all very well saying \u2018we\u2019re the last guys who do business this way \u2013 we\u2019re sticking to our old-school values!\u2019. But you can go out<\/em> of business with that attitude.<\/p>\n

“It\u2019s all very well saying \u2018we\u2019re the last guys who do business this way \u2013 we\u2019re sticking to our old-school values!\u2019. But you can go out<\/em> of business with that attitude.”<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

I suspect BMI had to make this change to be more nimble and so they could actually survive long-term. If down the line they\u2019re stronger as a for-profit, but songwriters are getting paid more than they are today, then great.<\/p>\n

The PROs, as you know, face a huge number of issues in the years ahead of us, not least if the publishers manage to go direct on their licensing to digital services. That one law change in the [US] Consent Decrees could change everything.<\/p>\n

I suspect BMI is looking at how some of this might play out and they\u2019re thinking, \u2018Okay, we can\u2019t stay in that old model \u2013 because then we risk going extinct.\u2019<\/p>\n

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You built Milk & Honey on songwriters and producers. You then moved into working with DJ\/artists. And more recently you\u2019ve expanded into representing sports stars. Why weren\u2019t songs enough?<\/h6>\n

Because it\u2019s more exciting to be a multi-platform entertainment company than just do one thing.<\/p>\n

Songs will always<\/em> be the backbone of our business, and we still operate around the songwriting business for most of our day.<\/p>\n

We\u2019ve also invested in expanding into other areas like the song rights brokerage business [Milk & Honey says it was at the center of over $150 million-worth<\/a> of song rights sales during the pandemic].<\/p>\n

“It\u2019s not a bad thing to look up to Roc Nation, or to look up to CAA, and the amazing businesses these great people have built.”<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

I\u2019d hate for people to say, \u2018Oh Milk & Honey just used the song business to get to that next place.\u2019 That’s not what we’re doing at all; it\u2019s more like a layer cake. It\u2019s adding things to a foundation that we will never abandon.<\/p>\n

Our writer\/producer business is actually cranking up right now, and we\u2019re committing more and more resources to it \u2013 it would be crazy to turn our back on it. But we\u2019re ambitious, and we\u2019re hiring tons of people to increase resources in all of these areas.<\/p>\n

It\u2019s not a bad thing to look up to Roc Nation, or to look up to CAA, and the amazing businesses these great people have built.<\/p>\n

\n
<\/a><\/figure>A specialist in intelligent treasury, payments and foreign exchange, Centtrip works with over 500 global artists helping them and their crew maximise their income and reduce touring costs with its award-winning multi-currency card and market-leading exchange rates. Centtrip also offers record labels, promoters, collection societies and publishers a more cost-effective way to send payments across the globe.<\/a><\/i><\/b>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

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