{"id":190260,"date":"2024-01-17T18:40:37","date_gmt":"2024-01-17T18:40:37","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.musicbusinessworldwide.com\/?p=190260"},"modified":"2024-01-22T14:54:56","modified_gmt":"2024-01-22T14:54:56","slug":"when-youre-making-records-theres-always-the-odd-moment-when-you-dont-know-what-the-hell-youre-doing-but-it-generally-passes-dont-panic-is-the","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.musicbusinessworldwide.com\/when-youre-making-records-theres-always-the-odd-moment-when-you-dont-know-what-the-hell-youre-doing-but-it-generally-passes-dont-panic-is-the\/","title":{"rendered":"&#8216;When you\u2019re making records, there\u2019s always the odd moment when you don\u2019t know what the hell you\u2019re doing, but it generally passes \u2013 don\u2019t panic is the important thing&#8217;"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>MBW\u2019s World\u2019s Greatest Producers series sees us interview \u2013 and celebrate \u2013 some of the outstanding talents working in studios across the decades. This time out we meet Trevor Horn, the producer behind a string of 1980s pop classics, with an influence that stretches into the present day. World\u2019s Greatest Producers is supported by <a href=\"https:\/\/www.hipgnosissongs.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Hipgnosis Song Management<\/a>.<\/p>\n<hr \/>\n<figure class=\"mbw-articlepic mbw-articlepic--right\"><img  alt=\"Music Business Worldwide World&#039;s Greatest Producers with Hipgnosis Songs Fund\" title=\"Music Business Worldwide World&#039;s Greatest Producers with Hipgnosis Songs Fund\" class=\"lazyload\" data-src=\"https:\/\/www.musicbusinessworldwide.com\/files\/2020\/04\/WGP_Hipgnosis_300x250-1.gif\" ><\/figure><p>It wasn\u2019t until Trevor Horn scored his first No.1 hit that he realized he was never going to cut it as an artist.<\/p>\n<p>The Buggles\u2019\u00a0<em>Video Killed The Radio Star<\/em> might have topped charts around the world in 1979 and become the first video ever shown on MTV two years later. But, as Horn struggled to come up with a similarly blockbusting follow-up \u2013 and the fallout from a brief, ill-fated stint as the singer in his favorite prog rock band Yes (\u201cA crazy thing to do!\u201d) \u2013 his then-wife and manager, the late, great music executive Jill Sinclair, told him some home truths.<\/p>\n<p>\u201cShe said to me, \u2018I think you\u2019d do better as a producer\u2019,\u201d he shrugs. \u201c\u2018You could be one of the best producers in the world, but as an artist you\u2019ll always be second division\u2019. Harsh? Yes, but sometimes good advice can be harsh.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And Sinclair\u2019s suggestion certainly proved to be sound. Horn had had a curious career up to that point, earning a living as a session bassist and playing live \u201cevery night of the week \u2013 but playing mainly crap at various levels\u201d, before the big Buggles breakthrough.<\/p>\n<p>His stint as a producer didn\u2019t look set for the most auspicious start either, as Sinclair hooked him up with naff pop duo Dollar (\u201cI was like, \u2018Dollar?\u2019\u201d he chuckles. \u201c\u2018You think that\u2019s good for me to produce? I\u2019ve been in Yes! I did three nights at Madison Square Garden!\u2019\u201d). But, regardless, he delivered a state-of-the-art production on singles such as <em>Mirror Mirror<\/em> and <em>Hand Held In Black And White<\/em> and it proved to be quite the calling card.<\/p>\n<p>From there on in, Horn\u2019s high-impact, tech-friendly style reconstructed the sonic architecture of the 1980s, helming classic albums, from ABC\u2019s <em>The Lexicon Of Love<\/em> to Malcolm McLaren\u2019s <em>Duck Rock<\/em> to Frankie Goes To Hollywood\u2019s <em>Welcome To The Pleasuredome<\/em>. Along the way, he, Sinclair and NME writer Paul Morley set up ZTT Records, taking Frankie to global, controversy-strewn ubiquity and making unlikely stars of Propaganda and Art Of Noise (featuring Horn himself). He even returned in triumph to Yes, producing their <em>90125<\/em> album and delivering their only US No.1 hit, <em>Owner Of A Lonely Heart<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p>\u201cI had a white-hot few years, but nobody can keep it up, you know?\u201d he says, but, in fact, his legacy has endured far beyond the decade in which he made his name. He and ZTT took Seal to superstardom, and he has worked with everyone from t.A.T.u to Belle &amp; Sebastian, Robbie Williams to Rod Stewart, as documented in his excellent autobiography, <em>Adventures In Modern Recording<\/em>.<\/p>\n<hr \/>\n<div class=\"mb-embed-container\"><iframe src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/W8r-tXRLazs\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><\/div>\n<hr \/>\n<p>His latest project is the\u00a0<em>Trevor Horn Presents Echoes \u2013 Ancient &amp; Modern\u00a0<\/em>album, out now, which he bills as \u201ca collection of singles from the past, done in a very different way\u201d. So, Toyah &amp; Robert Fripp reinvent\u00a0<em>Relax<\/em>\u00a0(\u201cThis time it\u2019s much more literally relaxed!\u201d); Iggy Pop (\u201cA serious pro!\u201d) makes\u00a0<em>Personal Jesus<\/em>\u00a0his own; and Lady Blackbird (\u201cGreat voice!\u201d) takes on\u00a0<em>Slave To The Rhythm<\/em>\u00a0(Horn also produced Grace Jones\u2019 ground-breaking original).<\/p>\n<p>Today, he welcomes\u00a0<em>MBW<\/em>\u00a0into his well-appointed North London home. There\u2019s a \u201cfantastic\u201d studio downstairs and the front room is littered with the spoils of a life in music. His Grammy for Seal\u2019s\u00a0<em>Kiss From A Rose<\/em>\u00a0is on display, along with copies of\u00a0<em>Viz<\/em>\u00a0and\u00a0<em>Classic Pop<\/em>\u00a0magazine and Bernie Taupin\u2019s memoir. A wooden model of himself sits above the smouldering fire that\u2019s keeping the early winter chill at bay.<\/p>\n<p>Horn\u2019s own fire, however, seems in no danger of going out. Multiple projects keep him in touch with music and production (Dr Dre is his favorite producer, while his son Aaron was Grammy-nominated for his own production work with Doja Cat), and he is contemplating both a Los Angeles-based concept album and a Buggles tour for next year.<\/p>\n<p>Time now though to sit back, relax and listen to some tales from his remarkable career\u2026<\/p>\n<hr \/>\n<h6><figure class=\"mbw-articlepic mbw-articlepic--right\"><img  class=\"lazyload\" data-srcset=\"https:\/\/www.musicbusinessworldwide.com\/files\/2024\/01\/trevor-horn-echoes-80x80.jpg 80w, https:\/\/www.musicbusinessworldwide.com\/files\/2024\/01\/trevor-horn-echoes-160x160.jpg 160w, https:\/\/www.musicbusinessworldwide.com\/files\/2024\/01\/trevor-horn-echoes-320x320.jpg 320w, https:\/\/www.musicbusinessworldwide.com\/files\/2024\/01\/trevor-horn-echoes-418x418.jpg 418w\" data-sizes=\"auto\"><\/figure>WHAT WAS IT LIKE REVISITING SOME OF YOUR OLD SONGS FOR\u00a0<em>ECHOES<\/em>?<\/h6>\n<p>The whole album was a bit like a journey where you don\u2019t know where you&#8217;re going. It started off one way and ended up another. I knew I didn\u2019t want to do another orchestral album. Initially, I was going to do a really stripped-down record, but I tried it and didn\u2019t like it. This is what I like really.<\/p>\n<p>The one I wouldn\u2019t do was\u00a0<em>Video Killed The Radio Star<\/em>, I couldn\u2019t face it! It was bad enough with\u00a0<em>Relax<\/em>. At first I was like, \u2018No way, I\u2019m not doing another fucking version of\u00a0<em>Relax<\/em>!\u2019 And then you have an idea.<\/p>\n<p>I realized, when I did it the first time, I knew it was a hit idea, but it took time to work it out, because it was like a chant and to make it into a record was quite a thing. But this time, I didn\u2019t have that pressure. Back then it was hard because I was dealing with a group \u2013 here, I could do what I wanted. I just had to stop myself from messing around with it.<\/p>\n<p>When you\u2019re making records, there\u2019s always the odd moment when you don\u2019t know what the hell you\u2019re doing, but it generally passes and, if you keep doing it, something will become apparent. Don\u2019t panic is the important thing, I always think.<\/p>\n<hr \/>\n<h6>DO YOU LIKE BEING SEEN AS THE PERSONIFICATION OF A MUSIC PRODUCER BY MANY PEOPLE?<\/h6>\n<p>Recognition for what you do is always nice. Not that people always like what I do, but I was very lucky. There was a brief period where I had the drop on everybody, because not many people knew how this new digital thing was working.<\/p>\n<p>In the \u201880s, I was a man on a mission. I was a bit like Kid Harpoon \u2013 who I actually produced. He was a good artist, he only missed it by that much, he definitely had talent. But it makes for interesting producers.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s so difficult to be a successful solo artist, it\u2019s like being a leading man. It\u2019s not just about having the talent to do it: if you\u2019re going to be a leading man, you\u2019ve got to have at least three good angles. You can\u2019t just have one good angle.<\/p>\n<hr \/>\n<h6>DID YOU REALIZE HOW PRESCIENT\u00a0<em>VIDEO KILLED THE RADIO STAR<\/em>\u00a0WAS?<\/h6>\n<p>No, I just remember the line popping in my head and Bruce [Woolley, Buggles member] saying, \u2018We can\u2019t use that!\u2019 \u2018Why can\u2019t we?\u2019 \u2018Because there\u2019s two bands, one called the Radio Stars and one called Snips And the Video Kings\u2019. And I said, \u2018They\u2019ll probably be gone by the time this comes out!\u2019<\/p>\n<p>I was reading a lot of JG Ballard and I was taken with this story [<em>The Sound-Sweep<\/em>] about this opera singer who\u2019s now out of date because people aren\u2019t listening to music anymore. It was just the idea of technology passing you by. I think it\u2019s one of the reasons the song stuck around, because the lyrics aren\u2019t about love.<\/p>\n<hr \/>\n<h6>WHEN YOU WORKED WITH DOLLAR, WERE YOU AWARE HOW MUCH OTHER WORK THAT PRODUCTION STYLE WOULD GET YOU?<\/h6>\n<p>Jill said I should essentially make a Buggles record and they\u2019d front it. So I had a meeting with them and basically said that to them: \u2018I\u2019ll make a record and put you on it, are you OK with that?\u2019 And they were like, \u2018Whatever you want us to do, we\u2019ll do\u2019. And it turned out really well. [The Dollar Album] is a funny, odd record but loads of people really liked it \u2013 even Hans Zimmer said to me that he liked it at a party.<\/p>\n<p>I wasn\u2019t thinking about attracting other people. But in fact, that\u2019s one of the reasons ABC wanted to meet me, because they really liked\u00a0<em>Hand Held In Black And White<\/em>.<\/p>\n<hr \/>\n<h6>THE LEXICON OF LOVE\u00a0WORKED OUT PRETTY WELL, TO BE FAIR\u2026<\/h6>\n<p>They\u2019re still touring it! When I go back and listen to\u00a0<em>The Lexicon Of Love<\/em>, I can see we were trying to blend Bob Dylan and Chic. Chic records were really great, but the lyrical content was fairly limited, whereas\u00a0<em>Lexicon Of Love<\/em>\u00a0had wonderful lines. Great stuff!<\/p>\n<hr \/>\n<h6>WHAT WAS IT LIKE WORKING WITH MALCOLM McLAREN ON <em>BUFFALO GALS<\/em>, WHICH MANY PEOPLE SEE AS ESSENTIALLY THE FIRST BRITISH RAP RECORD?<\/h6>\n<p>There were definitely a couple of moments where I tried to bail on Malcolm. One time, I really tried to go, but he wouldn\u2019t let me and talked me out of it. It was just so difficult to figure out what we were meant to be doing.<\/p>\n<p>That album was definitely a trip but, right at the end of it, Malcolm had this idea to do a rapping, scratching version of <em>ET Come Home<\/em>. And I said to him, \u2018Why don\u2019t we do a rapping scratching version of\u00a0<em>Buffalo Gals<\/em>?\u2019 We\u2019d recorded [a country-style version] down in Tennessee and it sounded fucking awful to me. I hated it.<\/p>\n<hr \/>\n<div class=\"mb-embed-container\"><iframe src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/HCBN7lyLT4w\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><\/div>\n<hr \/>\n<p>I\u2019d met Afrika Bambaataa, so I knew what those guys were doing. It still took time to do because the World Famous Supreme Team wouldn\u2019t rap it. They were very suspicious of everything.<\/p>\n<p>I said I\u2019d show them, got in the studio and rapped two verses. I looked in the control room and I couldn\u2019t see them. I thought they\u2019d gone, but they were just laughing so hard they were crying! \u2018Trev man, we didn\u2019t know you could rap!\u2019<\/p>\n<hr \/>\n<h6><figure class=\"mbw-articlepic mbw-articlepic--right\"><img  class=\"lazyload\" data-srcset=\"https:\/\/www.musicbusinessworldwide.com\/files\/2024\/01\/relax-80x80.jpg 80w, https:\/\/www.musicbusinessworldwide.com\/files\/2024\/01\/relax-160x160.jpg 160w\" data-sizes=\"auto\"><\/figure>WHAT WAS IT LIKE BEING CAUGHT UP IN THE FRANKIE GOES TO HOLLYWOOD MADNESS?<\/h6>\n<p>That was an interesting dynamic for a while, having the band allow us to run rampant whilst they went out and promoted it.<\/p>\n<p><em>Relax<\/em>\u00a0was an interesting idea, it wasn\u2019t a song really, but it had a certain quality to it. I\u2019d heard the demo and, for some reason, it really clicked with me that there was a hit in it. But the reality of it was very sobering for a while.<\/p>\n<p>It took a long time for the literal meaning of \u2018When you want to come\u2019 to sink in \u2013 I didn\u2019t really think of it like that. In the same way that, when I was a kid, it never occurred to me that that, \u2018Good golly Miss Molly, you sure like to ball\u2019 was really, \u2018Good golly Miss Molly, you sure like to fuck!\u2019<\/p>\n<p>It was banned, but it was too late to stop it going to No.1 and, in fact, it worked for us, because you didn\u2019t get to hear the record too much.<\/p>\n<p>I wasn\u2019t basking in it though, I was desperately trying to get the follow-up ready, and it was pretty challenging to get\u00a0<em>Two Tribes<\/em>\u00a0to work. We tried a few other songs before we ended up with that one and it was a case of, well, this is the only one, we\u2019ll have to get it to work. We\u2019ve got no choice. In the end, it was amazing.<\/p>\n<hr \/>\n<h6>WAS ZTT AS MUCH FUN AS IT LOOKED?<\/h6>\n<p>It was fun for a while, but there were some sad moments. If I knew then what I know now, there would have been a few things I\u2019d have done differently.<\/p>\n<hr \/>\n<h6>LIKE WHAT?<\/h6>\n<p>For a kick-off, I\u2019d have hired loads of people and employed them to just talk to the acts all the time, so that other people didn\u2019t talk to them!<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s so hard to make anything successful in this business \u2013 if you think about how many records are made each week, the failure rate must be 90-95% and it\u2019ll guzzle money up quicker than even having a boat! So, whenever you get something actually selling and making money, the thing that\u2019s absolutely guaranteed is that everybody else in the music business will be sniffing around your act to see if they can get them, because it\u2019s something that they know is going to sell.<\/p>\n<p>We hadn\u2019t anticipated that and, of course, once they\u2019re successful, everybody can get a better deal than the one they\u2019ve got with you. It\u2019s very hard to keep acts when you\u2019re that successful.<\/p>\n<p>But I liked the idea that we could get people interested in a record, just because it was on ZTT. There aren\u2019t many labels like that now. XL is a good label because [Richard Russell] signs people that he likes, good musicians. I had maybe too romantic an idea of what a record label was actually like. I thought it would be a creative thing, but it only is up to a point.<\/p>\n<hr \/>\n<h6>YOU\u2019RE FAMOUS FOR PRODUCING ALBUMS, BUT IS THAT A DYING ART IN THE MODERN MUSIC INDUSTRY?<\/h6>\n<p>People say nobody buys them anymore \u2013 I don\u2019t know if that\u2019s true, but of course it\u2019s tempting to just buy one track.<\/p>\n<p>Another thing that used to annoy me was when people would say, \u2018That\u2019s not a single, that\u2019s an album track\u2019. The last thing I want is an album of failed singles. That\u2019s like a Spice Girls album, where the first two or three tunes are OK and then it gets murkier after that.<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>&#8220;when people say albums don\u2019t sell anymore, that\u2019s because people don\u2019t make albums properly. They think an album is just a dumping ground for a few singles and a load of shit.&#8221;<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>But a good album track is a good album track. If you think of Seal\u2019s first album, there are tracks on it like\u00a0<em>Violet<\/em>\u00a0and\u00a0<em>Deep Water<\/em>\u00a0that you wouldn\u2019t have put out as a single, but they\u2019re great tracks and we worked on them just as hard.<\/p>\n<p>So, when people say albums don\u2019t sell anymore, that\u2019s because people don\u2019t make albums properly. They think an album is just a dumping ground for a few singles and a load of shit.<\/p>\n<hr \/>\n<h6>DO ARTISTS EVER MIND YOU BEING SEEN AS SO INFLUENTIAL TO THEIR RECORDS?<\/h6>\n<p>It depends how grown-up they are! Somebody like Rod Stewart isn\u2019t exactly insecure so, if he sounds good, he\u2019s fine.<\/p>\n<p>When [ABC\u2019s]\u00a0<em>Poison Arrow\u00a0<\/em>came out, the first time it was on the\u00a0<em>Top Of The Pops<\/em>, whoever was introducing said, \u2018The new one by ABC, produced by Trevor Horn\u2026\u2019 and I thought, \u2018Fuck me, that\u2019s amazing\u2019. No other producer got a namecheck, so I thought, \u2018I\u2019m going to be famous\u2019.<\/p>\n<hr \/>\n<div class=\"mb-embed-container\"><iframe src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/WtQixz3USpk\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><\/div>\n<hr \/>\n<h6>YOU\u2019VE ALWAYS USED TECHNOLOGY, BUT WHAT IMPACT WILL AI HAVE ON PRODUCTION?<\/h6>\n<p>Look, back in 1968, you could buy a Marshall amp and a Gibson Les Paul, but it didn\u2019t make you Eric Clapton \u2013 and technology\u2019s the same. The technology is just a stepping stone towards realising the idea.<\/p>\n<p>Technology\u2019s great \u2013 there are lots of tedious tasks that used to take a long time that you can do a lot quicker. Compiling vocals would take a whole day, now I can chop my way through it in a couple of hours.<\/p>\n<p>I don\u2019t use AI, but if I was doing music for TV shows or film, I probably would. My son did a thing where he got Elvis to sing\u00a0<em>Video Killed The Radio Star<\/em>\u00a0with AI, but the trouble was, it didn\u2019t sound like Elvis. It sounded like Elvis copying my phrasing. Maybe it would have worked better if I\u2019d done an impression of Elvis, then they made it sound like Elvis.<\/p>\n<hr \/>\n<h6>IF YOU COULD CHANGE ONE THING ABOUT TODAY&#8217;S MUSIC INDUSTRY, RIGHT HERE AND NOW, WHAT WOULD IT BE AND WHY?<\/h6>\n<p>I wish the major labels would invest more in live venues for kids to play in.<\/p>\n<p>Making records now is more like cooking using stuff from cans and dried food: you don\u2019t go and make your own sauce, it comes in a packet. So, you only really need a couple of burners and some pans. If you made it all from scratch, you\u2019d need a much better kitchen. The thing I miss the most is people playing together, it\u2019s so rare now.<\/p>\n<hr \/>\n<h6>ARE THERE ANY ARTISTS THAT YOU HAVEN\u2019T WORKED WITH YET THAT YOU\u2019D LIKE TO PRODUCE?<\/h6>\n<p>No, I\u2019m more interested in the songs. That\u2019s what always gets my interest, rather than just a person. Because I like making records and it\u2019s hard to find a good song these days.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Trevor Horn reflects on shaping the sounds of Frankie Goes To Hollywood, ABC and more &#8211; and offers his insights into how production has changed as well as what remains as important as ever<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":29,"featured_media":190262,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[8],"tags":[119500],"class_list":["post-190260","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-interviews","tag-worlds-greatest-producers"],"acf":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.musicbusinessworldwide.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/190260","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.musicbusinessworldwide.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.musicbusinessworldwide.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.musicbusinessworldwide.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/29"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.musicbusinessworldwide.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=190260"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.musicbusinessworldwide.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/190260\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.musicbusinessworldwide.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/190262"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.musicbusinessworldwide.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=190260"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.musicbusinessworldwide.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=190260"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.musicbusinessworldwide.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=190260"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}