{"id":235852,"date":"2025-07-09T21:39:29","date_gmt":"2025-07-09T20:39:29","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.musicbusinessworldwide.com\/?p=235852"},"modified":"2025-07-09T21:39:29","modified_gmt":"2025-07-09T20:39:29","slug":"umpgs-david-gray-on-uk-music-global-ambitions-and-why-breaking-artists-still-matters","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.musicbusinessworldwide.com\/umpgs-david-gray-on-uk-music-global-ambitions-and-why-breaking-artists-still-matters\/","title":{"rendered":"UMPG’s David Gray on UK music, global ambitions, and why breaking artists still matters"},"content":{"rendered":"

David Gray\u2019s Kings Cross office at Universal Music Publishing Group isn\u2019t stuffed with decoration \u2013 but there are a few trinkets that hint at his story.<\/p>\n

There\u2019s an Arsenal scarf draped on the windowsill, right near a Ted Lasso poster nodding to Gray\u2019s American-in-London status.<\/p>\n

There\u2019s also an old poster of Idle Wilds \u2013 the RCA-signed band in which Gray sang and played rhythm guitar during his 1990s industry \u2018come up\u2019.<\/p>\n

And there\u2019s a notable framed image on his wall of Derek Smalls \u2013 the bass player from Spinal Tap \u2013 with some fading ink messages scrawled all around it.<\/p>\n

\u201cWhen I worked at Syco, at one point in a meeting Simon [Cowell] said, \u2018Has anyone seen the bass player from Spinal Tap and David Gray in the same room at the same time?\u2019\u201d Gray laughs. \u201cIt became a six-year running joke.\u201d<\/p>\n

The picture has followed Gray through every career move since \u2013 from Syco to Universal Music Publishing Group\u2019s L.A. office, then to New York, and now to London, with the encouragement of UMPG Chairman and CEO Jody Gerson.<\/p>\n

\u201cWhat\u2019s important to me about that picture is that even though I left [Syco] to come to Universal, the whole company sent me this picture with everyone signing it,\u201d he says. \u201cIt reminds me that I left in the right way; we\u2019re all still friends.\u201d<\/p>\n

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<\/div> <\/div> <\/p>\n

It\u2019s been five months since Gray began his tenure as Managing Director of Universal Music Publishing Group UK \u2013 a role he holds while also remaining UMPG\u2019s Head of Global A&R.<\/p>\n

Prior to taking the UK role in January, Gray was Executive Vice President and Co-Head of US A&R at UMPG \u2013 which he joined in Los Angeles back in 2013. He previously held posts as an A&R executive at Zomba and at Sony Music International, and served as senior A&R at Simon Cowell\u2019s Syco Music, where he developed artists signed to the label via X Factor and the Got Talent franchise.<\/p>\n

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\u201cThere is still an appetite globally for British artists who don\u2019t compromise.\u201d<\/p>\n

David Gray<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Gray\u2019s love for British culture is boldly apparent throughout our conversation, which flows through The Clash, The Smiths, The Cure, The Verve, Oasis, and beyond. It\u2019s no surprise to learn from him that Mike McCormack \u2013 who Gray succeeded as UMPG UK boss \u2013 once described Gray as \u201cthe most anglophile American I know\u201d.<\/p>\n

<\/div> <\/div> <\/p>\n

A key element of Gray\u2019s role at UMPG UK, he explains, is expanding opportunities for British writers and artists around the world.<\/p>\n

Gray, who hails from the East Coast of the US, is unabashedly bullish about the UK\u2019s future on the global stage \u2013 despite the British market\u2019s well- documented recent challenges competing against Latin America, South Korea, and other fast-growing global territories on streaming platforms.<\/p>\n

Before taking the reins at UMPG UK, Gray was the publisher behind a string of major talents, perhaps most notably Sabrina Carpenter, whom he first started working with back in 2014.<\/p>\n

He also signed the likes of Stephen Sanchez, Julia Michaels, Shawn Mendes, and the Jonas Brothers to Universal.<\/p>\n

<\/div> <\/div> <\/p>\n

The interview that follows delves into Gray\u2019s journey from failed musician (his words!) to UMPG London honcho, plus his views on artist development, patience, and the future of British music…<\/p>\n

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You were a very successful executive in the US \u2013 Mr Sabrina Carpenter! Why accept the UK MD job at a time when British artists are struggling to break through on the global stage?<\/h6>\n

Partly because I have no doubt the pendulum will swing. I understand the market forces at work and what globalisation has done to the UK, but I also know that the UK is always producing great artists and great songs \u2013 and greatness can overcome the [UK market\u2019s current slump].<\/p>\n

I grew up as a huge fan of UK music. I love the fact that when the UK gets it right, the artists that emerge from here can only emerge from here. Adele, Amy Winehouse, Ed Sheeran, Sam Smith \u2013 there\u2019s no way these artists come out of America or anywhere else.<\/p>\n

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David Gray has worked with Sabrina Carpenter for a decade<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n
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Plus honestly, I\u2019ve always wanted to work in London. I\u2019ve spent huge chunks of time here, especially working on X Factor at Syco. I\u2019ve always loved it and always felt really at home.<\/p>\n

The UK industry is not where anyone wants it to be, but sitting here and moaning about it isn\u2019t going to change anything \u2013 we need to do something about it. That\u2019s my view and I know it\u2019s Jody\u2019s view, as well.<\/p>\n

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With that in mind, what\u2019s your biggest message to UK writers and artists?<\/h6>\n

The one thing that I\u2019m really cautious of, and I\u2019ve said to the staff here and to the artists I\u2019ve met here: do not Americanize.<\/p>\n

“[Artists] think acting more American will sell you to America. The opposite is true.\u201d<\/p>\n

David Gray<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

You might feel like being more American is going to sell you to America; the opposite is actually true.<\/p>\n

There is still an appetite globally for British artists who don\u2019t compromise. Look at Fred Again..<\/p>\n

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Fred Again.. hits on an important industry topic right now. Despite not having a radio mega-hit, his fans are \u2018superfans\u2019. Are we evolving past our data obsession of the last few years? Is the industry starting to value emotional connection over sheer numbers again?<\/h6>\n

I think so. In the UK, that\u2019s out of necessity \u2013 for anything that jumps up on TikTok, US labels are going to offer UK artists more than [UK labels can]. So in A&R here we have to find talent early, develop it, and go by our gut. Because of that we don\u2019t have the luxury of signing things that we don\u2019t really believe in for the long haul.<\/p>\n

When it comes to us signing artist-writers, the questions are: Is there more here than just the TikTok moment? Is there a career? Can they play live? Can they build an audience? Are they great songwriters?<\/p>\n

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Photo Credit: Theo Batterham<\/figcaption><\/figure>
Fred Again<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n
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It doesn\u2019t make sense to just ignore data, but vetting [signings] beyond that is hugely important. When I was in America years ago, there was an artist having a moment on TikTok. A co-worker and I went to the show, and \u2013 I\u2019ll say it how it is \u2013 it was one of the worst things I\u2019ve ever seen. The artist couldn\u2019t sing, had no centre to himself, just bounding around the stage.<\/p>\n

It was a big moment of realisation that all the positive data in the world can never overcome a lack of artistry.<\/p>\n

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Let\u2019s step back: how did you get into music in the first place?<\/h6>\n

I grew up mostly on the East Coast. My dad moved around a little bit \u2013 White Plains, Rochester, Connecticut, back to suburban New York. He\u2019s responsible for my music problem! He was really into music; when he came home from work, we\u2019d bond over records. The Beatles was a big one, and he loved all the Philly International stuff. We sat there and listened to them, and I started looking at who produced those records, who the songwriters were.<\/p>\n

Initially, I thought I wanted to be a musician. I started putting bands together, all the usual cliche\u0301 things. I kept at it, and when my wife and I moved to Philadelphia, I put up a sign looking for band members, formed a group [Idle Wilds], and just by sheer will, moved up in the scene.<\/p>\n

Then we got a record deal \u2013 and got dropped. Then we got another record deal \u2013 and got dropped.<\/p>\n

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Was your wife supportive through all this? Was there ever a \u2018David, maybe it\u2019s time to think about being something other than a rock star\u2019 conversation?<\/h6>\n

Yes. When we moved to Philly she was in veterinary school, but her attitude was kind of like that of an A&R person: as long as there was progress, she was going to continue to support my music and help fund it! She was very supportive, came to gigs, put up with a lot of my whining and disappointment, me maxing out credit cards to pay for trips, all that kind of stuff.<\/p>\n

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This is the nineties. What was your impression of the music industry back then as an artist?<\/h6>\n

It was interesting. I managed [Idle Wilds] from within the band until we got signed [to RCA], after which we got a \u2018proper\u2019 manager \u2013 but even then I still kind of managed us. I never thought I\u2019d be sitting here [as a publishing executive]; I was very anti-industry, very untrusting, as you would be as an artist. But I also wanted to learn.<\/p>\n

To be honest I was a bit of a downer back in those days. I was signed to RCA around the same time as Dave Matthews, and he would go into the label, remember everybody\u2019s name, make them all feel special, he was a great guy.<\/p>\n

I would go in bitter, not talk to anyone, and sit with my A&R guy obviously thinking, \u2018Fucking label\u2019. Then, of course, when it came time for [the label team] to work someone\u2019s record, who do you think they\u2019re gonna work? I learned that lesson the hard way!<\/p>\n

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How did you make the transition from artist to industry professional?<\/h6>\n

I had a day job working doing credit collections at a stationery and printing company in New York. The guy who owned the company was neighbors with Barry Weiss [then at Jive Records].<\/p>\n

This guy knew I wanted to work in the music industry \u2013 I would actually walk half an hour across Midtown to little rehearsal rooms, play piano for 20 minutes, then come back to work. He knew I was dedicated and really cared.<\/p>\n

He set up a call, and I talked to Barry for an hour. At the end, I said, \u2018I\u2019ll do radio promo, marketing, I\u2019ll do anything to get a foot in the door.\u2019 Barry goes, \u2018Are you fucking kidding me?!\u2019 \u2013 in an excited way \u2013 \u2018with your experience? No, no…\u2019.<\/p>\n

And that\u2019s how I got my foot in the door as a very junior A&R person at Zomba. They paid me almost nothing, but I didn\u2019t care. I just wanted a shot.<\/p>\n

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You were at Zomba during the historic multi-billion acquisition of the company by BMG in 2002. What was that experience like?<\/h6>\n

It was amazing! I loved Zomba. The culture was great, the people were amazing, and the amount of success based on the number of people was incredibly high.<\/p>\n

Then, after two years there, I got a call from David Massey, who was at Sony, and that was my next move. [Gray became director of A&R at Daylight Records\/Sony Music International].<\/p>\n

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\"Simon<\/figure>How did you end up working with Simon Cowell?<\/h6>\n

Funny story. After Sony I went to Mercury, but it was a bad fit and I ended up leaving. I was a young executive with a wife, two small children, a new mortgage, thinking, \u2018What am I gonna do?\u2019<\/p>\n

The phone rings, I pick up: \u2018David, hi, it\u2019s Simon Cowell.\u2019<\/p>\n

I legitimately thought it was one of my friends pranking me, doing an impression of Simon. I was so rude and obnoxious to him; I honestly thought I was being played.<\/p>\n

Finally, we hang up, and five minutes later, Sonny Takhar [then at Syco] calls: \u2018Did you just talk to Simon?\u2019 I was like, \u2018Oh my God!\u2019<\/p>\n

I told Sonny what happened, and he laughed: \u2018Knowing Simon, he probably now likes you better because you weren\u2019t super nice.\u2019<\/p>\n

My time at Syco was amazing. Everything Simon promised me he would do, he did.<\/p>\n

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After Syco you made the leap to UMPG. How did you transition from labels to publishing?<\/h6>\n

After a while \u2013 and it had nothing to do with Syco \u2013 I just wanted to do something different. I really wanted to get back to the roots of all of music, which is songwriting.<\/p>\n

Writers and producers, or early artists \u2013 I was hungry to get back to that.<\/p>\n

I called my attorney and asked what was out there. He said, \u2018There\u2019s nothing out there, but I bet Universal would be interesting because they don\u2019t have a pop guy like you.\u2019 That was over 11 years ago now.<\/p>\n

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You\u2019ve worked with Jody Gerson for almost that entire tenure. What makes your relationship work?<\/h6>\n

Jody is easily the best boss and mentor I\u2019ve ever had. And I\u2019m not saying that because I\u2019m still working for her.<\/p>\n

When I went to her and said, \u2018Hey, my wife hates L.A., I\u2019d still love to do this job, what can I do in New York?\u2019 she enabled me to do my job from New York.<\/p>\n

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L to R: Emily Kennedy, David Gray, Stephen Sanchez, Jody Gerson, Jennifer Knoepfle, and Richard Cohen at Sir Lucian Grainge\u2019s 2023 Artist Showcase in Los Angeles<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n
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Then, when she and I conceived of [UMPG\u2019s] Global Creative Group, which focuses on songwriting collaborations across genre and geographical boundaries, she continued to support it wholeheartedly. Then she offered me my dream job of heading the UK office.<\/p>\n

She\u2019s allowed me to sign who I\u2019ve wanted to sign. She\u2019ll question things, as she should \u2013 \u2018Are you sure about this?\u2019\u2013 but she backs me completely once I\u2019ve decided. And her approach toward me is the same when it comes to those I\u2019ve wanted to hire. I\u2019m incredibly fortunate.<\/p>\n

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<\/figure>How are you going to differentiate UMPG UK from the other major publishers? What are you trying to implement that appeals to people above and beyond the number that\u2019s written on the cheque?<\/h6>\n

I\u2019ve been very careful when I talk to people not to say \u2018it\u2019s a new day at UMPG in the UK\u2019 because I inherited a fantastic team and great roster from Mike \u2013 and Mike was, and is, incredible. But when a new person starts, they want to do it their way, and that\u2019s certainly true for me.<\/p>\n

Our aim is to do early songwriter development before anybody else. You can already see that in the [new artist\/writers] we\u2019ve signed like Skye Newman [pictured inset], Kerr Mercer and Pozer. And we have a brilliant head of A&R in Pete Simmons who has a fantastic ear, is great with artists and writers and is a wonderful leader.<\/p>\n

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\u201cWe\u2019re not a bank. We\u2019re not just \u2018collectors\u2019. We\u2019re a music company.\u201d<\/p>\n

David Gray<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

This office has a great track record of signing writers\/artists at their earliest stages, and helping to develop them to become iconic globally \u2013 Adele, Coldplay, Mumford and Sons, to name a few \u2013 and we want to build on that legacy. But it\u2019s not all just about early development.<\/p>\n

We will invest in established or rising talent if two things are true \u2013 and this comes straight from the ethos Jody has long established: One, if we believe, wholeheartedly, that it\u2019s a real career artist or writer; two, just as important, if we believe we can make a true positive difference in their career.<\/p>\n

We\u2019re here, open for business, and \u2013 when we really believe in something \u2013 we\u2019re being aggressive.<\/p>\n

We\u2019re not a bank. We\u2019re not just \u2018collectors\u2019. We\u2019re a music company, and we want to find, sign and develop amazing talent.<\/p>\n

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I remember seeing Sabrina Carpenter sitting next to Sir Lucian Grainge at a Universal Grammy showcase a few years back. At the time, I thought, \u2018Why has Lucian got the Disney girl on his table?\u2019 But it kind of shows that when a major music company decides to throw everything behind an artist, it can still deliver. Do you still believe that?<\/h6>\n

Yes, with a caveat: they don\u2019t make too many Sabrina Carpenters!<\/p>\n

She\u2019s an artist who, uniquely before she [\u2018broke\u2019] had eight years\u2019 experience, made five albums, toured, had done TV, probably had made her share of mistakes before really figuring herself out and had grown to the point of being ready to take over the world. She essentially had more than 10,000 hours chalked up.<\/p>\n

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